World of Goo has 90% piracy rate

[R.O.B.]

Filed under: PC, Nintendo Wii

We received a tip pointing to the comments section of a recent RockPaperShotgun post, in which World of Goo designer Ron Carmel mentioned the game had a staggering 90% piracy rate. We contacted Carmel directly, who confirmed the figure was "about right."

Carmel informs us that he's seen torrent sites with "500 seeders and 300 leechers" and has received emails from people who initially stole the game but ended up buying the full product; unsurprisingly, they make up a "very small percentage." He concludes, "We're doing ok, though. We're getting good sales through WiiWare, Steam, and our website. Not going bankrupt just yet!"

Although Carmel takes it in stride, this is probably a good time for us to reiterate that the charming and fun World of Goo was developed by 2D Boy, which consists of Carmel and his design partner, Kyle Gabler. We want more goo, so please support the 2D boys properly.

[Thanks, Luis]

World of Goo has 90% piracy rate originally appeared on Joystiq on Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:45:00 EST. Please see our terms for use of feeds.

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Source: Joystiq

[Dazza]

I suppose they only have themselves to blame as they chose to distribute the game with no DRM. However the benefit to gamers is no hassles for playing the game you paid for (assuming you did pay for it!)

I wonder if the sheer volume of people who will pirate this will in effect leads to more sales through word of mouth? Maybe some will go on to buy the WiiWare version for convenience? All things considered I am sure they have made the right decision.

[pdRydia]

Originally Posted by Dazza

I suppose they only have themselves to blame as they chose to distribute the game with no DRM.

I don't even know where to begin with how wrong that is.

[Spore]

My bad.

[kawaiipikachu]

Originally Posted by pdRydia

I don't even know where to begin with how wrong that is.

Well i don't mind the idea of DRM itself just that im against certain forms of DRM (e.g. anything Sony) .

Think of it our Virtual Console & WiiWare games are tied to one console that in itself is a form of DRM .

Lets just say that theres a difference between Digital Rights Managment & Digital Restruction Management .

[Jogurt the Yogurt]

Releasing the game without DRM was a great move. Standing up for the ideals of pure gaming!

[Versus22]

Originally Posted by R.O.B.

World of Goo has 90% piracy rate

Wow, this is shocking news!
I hope they don't go bankrupt.

[kawaiipikachu]

Originally Posted by Versus22

Wow, this is shocking news!
I hope they don't go bankrupt.

Thats why they should have included Digital Rights Managment .

[Kanti 3000]

I almost feel obligated to buy this game and support these guys now...

[digiki]

Its really, really good but if its not your type of game ( its not my type) it probably won't completely blow you away. I had fun with it for a while but I'd rather play other genres of games.

[Dazza]

Originally Posted by pdRydia

I don't even know where to begin with how wrong that is.

Hey I am all for no DRM, its the best thing for consumers. Still its a brave move for publishers. Lets hope this paves the way for others to follow suit and not the opposite!

[Jogurt the Yogurt]

I think DRM obviously helps do the job of curbing piracy, but I don't think that crippling software is really the best solution to the piracy problem. It's like treating the symptoms. In the end it only makes the problem worse, as people get disillusioned and don't want to support the company, etc. The World of Goo dudes took a necessary first step in the right direction. Innovators are going to suffer a bit at the beginning of the process (especially if that 90% figure is correct), but it'll get better in the long run.

[Pegasus]

Originally Posted by Jogurt the Yogurt

I think DRM obviously helps do the job of curbing piracy

Hardly. DRM or no DRM, it doesn't matter. Games will still be pirated regardless at fairly equal rates.

Frankly, I have no problem at all with online registration with license keys that most indie/shareware titles require, especially since I've never had a problem re-registering those titles or renewing keys for them when I moved my games to a new computer.

[Jogurt the Yogurt]

Originally Posted by Pegasus

Hardly. DRM or no DRM, it doesn't matter. Games will still be pirated regardless at fairly equal rates.

That's what happens when you take half a sentence out of context! You just repeat my whole point again. DRM itself makes piracy more difficult, but the "treating the symptoms" approach just causes people to want to pirate those games even more, exacerbating the overall problem.

[Spore]

Originally Posted by Jogurt the Yogurt

I think DRM obviously helps do the job of curbing piracy...

No. That is 100% wrong. DRM is easily defeated and removed from the game by the versatile hackers and coders and is placed on the internet. So getting a game with DRM is just as easy as getting any other game really. Also, if there is anything DRM does, it is making gamers pirate MORE just to shove it up DRM's ass. Just look at the Spore fiasco.

[pdRydia]

Originally Posted by Dazza

Hey I am all for no DRM, its the best thing for consumers. Still its a brave move for publishers. Lets hope this paves the way for others to follow suit and not the opposite!

Yeah, it is brave, and good for us paying gamers in the end. Which is why I kind of double-take when I see "have only themselves to blame." Piracy's pretty complicated and I can't claim to know a whole lot about it, but my general policy is not to blame someone following the law (Goo makers) for others breaking it (pirates).

I realize you were probably just using a turn of phrase, but it's a turn of phrase I distinctly dislike. :[

[Ginta]

I'd be a little more ticked off than these guys if I learned I was losing thousands in every type of currency.

[Jogurt the Yogurt]

Originally Posted by Spore

No. That is 100% wrong. DRM is easily defeated and removed from the game by the versatile hackers and coders and is placed on the internet. So getting a game with DRM is just as easy as getting any other game really. Also, if there is anything DRM does, it is making gamers pirate MORE just to shove it up DRM's ass. Just look at the Spore fiasco.

See above. World of Goo has 90% piracy rate

[coire]

Putting DRM on a game (especially a downloadable one) is like putting a fence around a jar of honey in bear country, or putting a Park Ranger in place to protect Pic-a-nic Baskets against bears of higher than average intelligence.

One way or another, that bear is gonna get that Honey/Basket, and If you try and stop it, you risk upsetting your consumer base/creating over-stretched Yogi Bear-EULA metaphors.

[kawaiipikachu]

Originally Posted by coire

Putting DRM on a game (especially a downloadable one) is like putting a fence around a jar of honey in bear country, or putting a Park Ranger in place to protect Pic-a-nic Baskets against bears of higher than average intelligence.

One way or another, that bear is gonna get that Honey/Basket, and If you try and stop it, you risk upsetting your consumer base/creating over-stretched Yogi Bear-EULA metaphors.

Ether A you calling bears pirartes or B you calling Pirates bears .

[Joxe]

Originally Posted by Jogurt the Yogurt

...DRM itself makes piracy more difficult, but the "treating the symptoms" approach just causes people to want to pirate those games even more, exacerbating the overall problem.

If DRM makes piracy more difficult, then why was Spore out on the internet a week before the official retail release? As far as I know there's no way to fully protect your software from being pirated, about every PC game is available to download and a DRM or other kind of protection just delays the scene release with an hour or two. So on the first point there's no reason to have a protection at all since those who download simply download it anyway and those who buy games buy it anyway. I agree with you though that DRM kind of protection simply increases the consumers will of downloading, Spore (the game, not the person) is a good example of this since it's one of the most downloaded games because of the DRM in it.

In the end, people buy good games. Sure there will always be those who download, but if you release a good game, people will buy it. Many of the downloads made are just to test if the game is good enough since often there's no demos around nowadays (comparing to about 5-10 years ago) so people want to know if they want to spend €40-50 on a game or not.

[Jogurt the Yogurt]

Originally Posted by Joxe

If DRM makes piracy more difficult, then why was Spore out on the internet a week before the official retail release?

Because it's not the average Joe game buyer or 8-year old video game consumer (or his/her parents) who put Spore on the internet a week before official retail release.

The effect of DRM on piracy is an acute vs. chronic issue—decrease in potential for piracy in a small and short-term way coupled with an overall long-term increase in piracy. This has been demonstrated in many examples for the past few years. Spore is one example, and World of Goo is an example of the opposite (high initial piracy rate—90%?—with higher overall long-term sales from happy customers), though it's really too early to tell what its long-term sales will be like.

[thewiirocks]

Originally Posted by Jogurt the Yogurt

The effect of DRM on piracy is an acute vs. chronic issue—decrease in potential for piracy in a small and short-term way coupled with an overall long-term increase in piracy. This has been demonstrated in many examples for the past few years. Spore is one example, and World of Goo is an example of the opposite (high initial piracy rate—90%?—with higher overall long-term sales from happy customers), though it's really too early to tell what its long-term sales will be like.

Um, no. DRM has almost zero effect on piracy rates. It is at best, a speed bump. Once the game is cracked, it's cracked. Piracy continues as normal. If anything, the DRM issue appears to be driving some paying users to pirate downloads to avoid the DRM issue.

Also, you seem to be assuming that WoG's lack of DRM resulted in higher piracy rates. Actually, they seem to have lower than normal rates. The WoG guys took a few new factors into account and came out with a more accurate rate of 82%:

http://2dboy.com/2008/11/13/90/

They compared this to a DRMed game called Ricochet Infinity, which had a 92% piracy rate:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=17350

This number gave Ricochet pause and made them do some research into the issue. What they found was that they gained 1 sale for every 1000 pirates stopped. (!) Which means that even the best DRM (e.g. using a service like Steam or WiiWare to make piracy more difficult) is going to do little to increase sales.

Spore is another good example. The game was released on September 4th. By the 11th, evidence showed that the game had been pirated 170,000 times:

http://www.forbes.com/2008/09/12/spo...0912spore.html

35,000 of those were within 24 hours of the release. That's despite the draconian SecuROM protection. Furthermore, Forbes suggests that SecuROM may have accidentally spurred piracy on. (As I mentioned above.) Which means that:

1. DRM is ineffective
2. EA in unnecessarily punishing paying users
3. EA is losing goodwill and possible sales due to the DRM backlash

If you want to know how users are really starting to feel, watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-uulRB1OmY

I can identify with the guy as I personally have been bitten by DRM twice. Two games that I never played because I either couldn't get it to work or because I would have had to make hardware changes to my computer. (i.e. Replace the fairly standard CD burner with a regular CD-ROM drive.)

Those experiences are one of the reasons I stopped bothering with PC Gaming. It was just too much of a hassle. And I know from those I've spoken with that I'm not the only one. I don't have the research to back it up, but I suspect that the game industry's war on piracy has done more to implode the PC Gaming market than it has to stop piracy.

The studios keep blaming piracy as the reason why PC sales are continuing to drop. They may be right, if only because their draconian reactions to piracy have caused the destruction of PC sales.

[Jogurt the Yogurt]

Originally Posted by thewiirocks

I don't have the research to back it up, but I suspect that the game industry's war on piracy has done more to implode the PC Gaming market than it has to stop piracy.

The studios keep blaming piracy as the reason why PC sales are continuing to drop. They may be right, if only because their draconian reactions to piracy have caused the destruction of PC sales.

My point exactly. Thanks for the much-expanded and sourced explanation.

[coire]

Originally Posted by thewiirocks

Big Long Well sourced opinion

Originally Posted by Jogurt the Yogurt

Quoted Fraction of Opinion out of context the agreed with him

Originally Posted by Jogurt the Yogurt

That's what happens when you take half a sentence out of context! You just repeat my whole point again.

Yes. That is what just happened.

DRM has rarely, if ever stopped a game from hitting the Internet in Pirated form, the only practical purpose for DRM is helping to prevent second hand sales. Placing DRM on a game is a challenge to pirates and although pirates aren't super-technological-machines they will still always be able to out manouvre whatever company decided to put consumer-hassling protection on their game next.

[Jogurt the Yogurt]

Originally Posted by coire

Yes. That is what just happened.

The difference, of course, is that we're arguing the same thing (DRM = companies shooting themselves in the foot), and that quoting his summary doesn't change the inflection of his argument. When someone makes a great post like that, expanding on ideas from the rest of the thread in more articulate ways and fostering open discussion, it's polite to be somewhat grateful.

I find it hilariously ironic that, in trying to make a point about me removing a quote from context (which didn't happen anyway, since it was well-contextualized summary), what you ended up doing was removing a complaint of mine from context (people taking my rhetorical counterpoint as my thesis) and applying it to a different situation altogether (snipping to a conclusion to stand in for the whole argument). Meta-irony!

Anyway, I've heard my own fair share of horror stories similar to the ones thewiirocks mentions in his lengthy post above. Some folks over at my forum have made posts about games/companies "babysitting" the consumer (offline single-player games forcing the user to have a constant internet connection in order to continue playing, lengthy in-game and web-based registration procedures, etc.). It's this kind of "protection" that I find the most intrusive and annoying.

Sadly, this kind of thing is happening with obscure games and import games that don't get the benefit of localization or immediate "pirate"/hacker attention, which means that much of the the DRM can be hard for the user to circumvent in a practical way.

[coire]

Originally Posted by Jogurt the Yogurt

I find it hilariously ironic that, in trying to make a point about me removing a quote from context (which didn't happen anyway, since it was well-contextualized summary), what you ended up doing was removing a complaint of mine from context (people taking my rhetorical counterpoint as my thesis) and applying it to a different situation altogether (snipping to a conclusion to stand in for the whole argument). Meta-irony!

If you find that hilarious, then you must be a smash at parties.

It seems here that 2D boy is being taken advantage of by the many many anonymous people on the internet. Oh noes - Piracy is on the internet. As long as there is something that can be placed onto a form of media and passed on, there will be people who will do so.

EA, granted, still have problems with piracy, but I think if this proves anything, it proves something everyone already knows - people don't like paying for things they can 'get' (read:download) for free. Also, It's amazing the energy and/or people will put into proving a point (That DRM is meaningless) or into proving a point of view over all others, to people who really didn't care that strongly in the first place (What the point/reason for DRM is - I rarely play PC games, I'll download World of Goo on WiiWare if I want it - DRM doesn't affect me that much... yet?)

[Jogurt the Yogurt]

Originally Posted by coire

It seems here that 2D boy is being taken advantage of by the many many anonymous people on the internet.

RE: 2D boy, it's actually heartening to hear that the actual piracy rate for their game is lower than they thought. I wonder if this had any effect on their decision to release the European version on WiiWare after all...?

Originally Posted by coire

(What the point/reason for DRM is - I rarely play PC games, I'll download World of Goo on WiiWare if I want it - DRM doesn't affect me that much... yet?)

I also rarely (never) play PC games and am not all that affected by DRM. The Spore thing ****ed a lot of people off, and even though it's easily pirated, a lot of people are ****ed off at having to jump through those hoops to be able to play it like it should be able to be played (multiple installs, etc.). I think one worrying thing about this approach is if the gaming industry ever decides to start randomly suing people (like the music industry has been doing). The fact that DRM "tech" is improving all the time (not improving as in getting more effective, but improving as in getting more annoying and virus-like) only means that more and more honest and legitimate consumers are going to have to download / "fix" their games in order to have any kind of enjoyable experience, and when things get to that level, who knows what kind of desperate measures will be resorted to by an industry that is already making strange decisions about protecting their products.

Anyway, bottom line, I'm glad to see folks like the World of Goo dudes going DRM free, succeeding critically and (presumably) commercially, and ending up with a quality product at the same time.