PAL: VC conversion guide

[Betagam7]

As most of us know, PAL gamers still suffer when it comes to the VC with games often being left unoptimised for the region and running at 50hz resulting in slower gameplay and borders at the top and bottom of the game giving the game a "squashed" appearence. Because of the often random nature of optimisation on some formats it is often difficult to predict what games will have these problems.

As VC-reviews chooses to no longer give us this information I thought it might be useful to compile a definative list similar to the one that used to be found on Wikipedia. It would be difficult, if not impossible to do this alone but as a community we can share our knowledge of the individual games we have bought.

I'll start off below and people can then post to add details on games they've bought and I'll update the main list. This topic can then be used as a reference point for people to check on the game before buying it.

C64

C64 games were often originally developed in europe and as such are not affected by poor optimisation. Games will run in optimised 50hz with full speed and music (although there may be problems in emulation on later games such as Mayhem in Monsterland due to it using programming tricks and techniques that were not well known or documented at the time of development).
Screen size on the VC games is optimised from the original to make the games run at full screen. A possible improvement over the original.
The following C64 VC titles suffer from emulation problems:

THE LAST NINJA 3:

WARNING - DO NOT DOWNLOAD THIS GAME!
The vc version of Last Ninja 3 contains a bug that resets the emulator to the C64 startup blue screen after completion of the first level. This bug has STILL NOT BEEN FIXED by the developer yet the game is still available to download. A fix is promised but so far has been not-forthcoming

MAYHEM IN MONSTERLAND:

Emulation issues with colours and sound effects. Serious emulation issues with music which often cuts out. No fix planned as of writing.

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ARCADE

Since VC Arcade games were never "regionalised" they should all run at their optimum 60hz capacity. No problems there.

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NES

As a rule all NES games run in 50hz are not speed corrected and have borders. Exceptions being:

Super Mario Bros.
Format: 50hz, Speed corrected: Yes, Borders: Yes

Bio Miracle Bokutte Upa
Format: 60hz, Speed corrected: N/A, Borders: No

Dig Dug
Format: 60hz, Speed corrected: N/A, Borders: No

Ninja Gaiden
Format: 60hz, Speed Corrected: N/A, Borders: No

Ninja JaJaMaru-kun
Format: 60hz, Speed Corrected: N/A, Borders: No

Super Mario Bros: The Lost Levels
Format: 60hz, Speed Corrected: N/A, Borders: No


n.b: As a rule all "Hanabi Festival" NES "imports" run in full screen, full speed 60hz and have no PAL conversion issues.
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SNES

Actraiser
Format: 50hz, Speed corrected: No, Borders: No

Axelay
Format: 50hz, Speed corrected: No, Borders: No

Super Probotector
Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: No, Borders: no

Donkey Kong Country
Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: Yes, Borders: No

Donkey Kong Country 2
Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: Yes, Borders: No

Donkey Kong Country 3
Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: Yes, Borders: No

DoReMi Fantasy: Milon's Doki Doki Adventure
Format: 60hz, Speed Corrected: N/A, Borders: No

Gradius 3
Format: 60hz, Speed Corrected: N/A, Borders: No

Harvest Moon
Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: No, Borders: No

Street Fighter 2 Turbo: Hyper Fighting
Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: No, Borders: Yes

Super Castlevania IV
Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: No, Borders: No

Super Ghouls & Ghosts
Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: No, Borders: No

Super Mario RPG
Format: 60hz, Speed Corrected: N/A, Borders: No

Super Mario World
Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: No, Borders: No

Super Turrican
Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: No, Borders: No

The Legend of the Mystical Ninja
Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: No, Borders: No

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Sega Master System

Alex Kidd in Miracle World
Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: No, Borders: Reduced

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MEGA DRIVE

MegaDrive games get the worst PAL conversion of all, no optimisation is made whatsoever so all run in 50hz with borders and 17.5% slower than the NTSC originals. Shockingly, Hanabi titles which are NTSC ROMS go through some kind of reverse engineering that downgrades them to run in 50hz, borders and 17.5% slower. So even imports arn't safe, this is the case right up until Sega's most recent release Pulseman. Avoid.
Recently this attitude has stretched to Disc based Wii releases such as Madworld

If you are as irritated by this as you should be why not COMPLAIN directly and as strongly as possible to the people with an influence, Sega themselves. Send a letter to the following address marking it as a complaint:

Sega Europe
27 Great West Road
Brentford
Middlesex
TW8 9BW
United Kingdom

Some deviations occur with the music in Hanabi titles and are listed below:

Gley Lancer - Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: No, Slower Soundtrack: No, Borders: Yes

Puyo Puyo 2 - Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: No, Slower Soundtrack: Yes, Borders: Yes

Columns 3 - Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: No, Slower Soundtrack: Yes, Borders: Yes

Sonic the Hedgehog 2 - Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: Yes, Slower Soundtrack: Unknown, Borders: Yes

Sonic the Hedgehog 3 - Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: Yes, Slower Soundtrack: Unknown, Borders: Yes

(n.b, both Sonic 2 and 3 were speed corrected for the original PAL Megadrive release and have not been corrected specifically for the VC.)

in addition the following games while still running slower and in 50hz do not, at least, suffer from slower music:

Shinobi III - Return of the Ninja Master - Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: No, Slower Soundtrack: No, Borders, Yes


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Turbografx - 16

TheTurbografx - 16 being originally region free runs all its games in 60hz so there is no reduction in quality for PAL gamers. The TG16 is your best bet for 60hz gaming.

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NEO GEO

Early indications are that the Neo Geo PAL conversions will follow the same path as the Sega Megadrive and NES conversions in being uniformly bad. Expect 50hz no speed correction and borders throughout. As a PAL gamer you would be far better buying the excellent SNK: Arcade Collections for true 60hz NEO GEO Gaming (They're also much better value for money!)



Magician Lord
Format: 50hz, Speed Correction: No, Borders: Yes


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N64

Paper Mario
Format: 50hz, Speed Correction: No, Borders: No

Super Mario 64
Format: 50hz, Speed Correction: Some, Borders: No

Sin & Punishment
Format: 60hz, Speed Correction: N/A, Borders: No

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[slangman]

I was actually thinking of creating a thread like this, but since one was created way before I was not too sure.

I wouldn't mind seeing this list since I need help decidng which games are bad PAL conversions.

Like I said somebody already done this, but the thread is not updated anymore. Maybe you could take information from this thread.

http://www.vc-forums.com/50hz-game-i...98.html?t=3898

Also I want to point out that Gradius III is a Hanabi title which runs at 60hz. It would be good if you also stated which games suffer from slower music, as only some PAL NES and Mega Drive titles have the same music speed as the NTSC versions.

Current Virtual Console Arcade titles run at 60hz. Although I am not sure about this, i heard someware that the NTSC versions of C64 games on the VC as too fast, which would make the 50hz versions better for once.

[Betagam7]

Updated Gradius 3 and added a brief segment about the Arcade.

Had a look at the other thread, it seems to go into a lot more detail about minor emulation issues wheras this was more to concentrate on the differences between PAL and NTSC roms but I'll take what info I can from it.

Don't forget to add any of your VC buys with the 3 main criteria, the ones below are just my own as I don't want to comment on anything I don't own.

Ideally we need a C64 and Master system buyer to contribute their findings.

Perhaps one of our friendly mods could sticky this thread to prevent it dying a death like the other one.

[Tull]

Good stuff!

[Betagam7]

Cheers,

I've a feeling Neo geo games follow the same rule as Mega Drive games but as I only bought one I can't confirm. Can anyone else?

[Joxe]

Tried the C64 game that were available for testing which was International Karate by simply starting the game and listen to the .sid at the same time. That test shows that either the game is optimized or the .sid file I have is from the PAL version which is very likely since the game was developed in Europe by System 3.

I would gladly test some more games but the two others I have is untestable, Last Ninja haven't let their in-game music to be in the .sid pack so it's simply unavailable and Impossible Mission have no music.

Edit: Found the .sid for Last Ninja (stupid SidPlay plugin for WinAmp) and it too is the same as the game available on VC. Just two tests but it seems like the sound is optimized and the picture is enlarged by default (the original C64 had some large borders in the past) so the picture should be count as optimized as well.

[Betagam7]

Originally Posted by Joxe

Tried the C64 game that were available for testing which was International Karate by simply starting the game and listen to the .sid at the same time. That test shows that either the game is optimized or the .sid file I have is from the PAL version which is very likely since the game was developed in Europe by System 3.

I would gladly test some more games but the two others I have is untestable, Last Ninja haven't let their in-game music to be in the .sid pack so it's simply unavailable and Impossible Mission have no music.

Edit: Found the .sid for Last Ninja (stupid SidPlay plugin for WinAmp) and it too is the same as the game available on VC. Just two tests but it seems like the sound is optimized and the picture is enlarged by default (the original C64 had some large borders in the past) so the picture should be count as optimized as well.

Thanks Joxe, I've added a standard paragraph about the C64, guessing that so far all releases follow a uniform pattern but mentioning minor emulation issues on some games. I might expand this to cover games like LN3 which as far as I am aware still does not work.

Can anyone help expand the lists on the other format? You just need to post the title of the game, whether it has been optimised for speed and whether it has been optimised to remove or reduce borders (please be specific on the last one).
I can then add them to the main lists.

Also need info on the SMS. Presuming its the same rule as the megadrive but need solid facts from someone who has downloaded SMS games

[slangman]

Sega Master System

Alex Kidd in Miracle World
Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: No, Slower Soundtrack ???, Borders: Reduced

I have the VC version of the game, are games from the 8-bit era supossed to have slight boarders? I think this game has borders (although not as bad as Mega Drive 50hz conversions)

Sega Mega Drive
Gley Lancer: (Dispite been a Hanabi title, this has been converted to 50hz)
Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: No, Slower Soundtrack No, Borders: Yes

(Dispite been a Hanabi title, this has been converted to 50hz)
PUYO PUYO 2:
Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: No, Slower Soundtrack: Yes, Borders: Yes
(Dispite been a Hanabi title, this has been converted to 50hz)
Columns III:
Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: No, Slower Soundtrack: ???, Borders: Yes

[Betagam7]

Added the SMS. Interesting that the Gley Lancer soundtrack isn't effected. Very odd.
As a side note, its kind of annoying that you can't centre text when editing a post here or alter mistakes in the Title. Any chance of that being fixed by one of our overlords?

[Jogurt the Yogurt]

Originally Posted by Betagam7

Added the SMS. Interesting that the Gley Lancer soundtrack isn't effected. Very odd.
As a side note, its kind of annoying that you can't centre text when editing a post here or alter mistakes in the Title. Any chance of that being fixed by one of our overlords?

You should be able to centre text when editing. If you're just getting the "quick edit" screen, click on the "Go Advanced" button to bring up the full editor.

[Betagam7]

Originally Posted by Jogurt the Yogurt

You should be able to centre text when editing. If you're just getting the "quick edit" screen, click on the "Go Advanced" button to bring up the full editor.

Cheers Dude and thanks for fixing the title

[Tull]

NES Hanabi
Bio Miracle Bokutte Upa
Dig Dug
Ninja Gaiden
Ninja JaJaMaru-kun
Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels

[slangman]

[quote=Betagam7;112745]Added the SMS. Interesting that the Gley Lancer soundtrack isn't effected. Very odd.


Some NES and Mega Drive games have slow music. Thats why I thought it would be a good idea to mention if a game has slow music or not.

[Betagam7]

Updated NES Hanabi titles. Slangman, will add any extra info like music speed whenever its supplied. Keep them coming.
N64 titles seem to have quite a bit of variation if anyone can supply details on some.

[Betagam7]

Updated the Sega section to include the address to complain directly to Sega at.

[KeeperBvK]

Super Mario Bros.
Format: 50hz, Speed corrected: Yes, Borders: Yes

I pretty much don't know anything about technical issues and stuff like that, so please bear with me when I ask: What's bad about it being 50Hz if the speed's been adjusted to the original 60Hz one?

[Betagam7]

Originally Posted by KeeperBvK

I pretty much don't know anything about technical issues and stuff like that, so please bear with me when I ask: What's bad about it being 50Hz if the speed's been adjusted to the original 60Hz one?

Nothing, provided the borders have been removed and the screen size optimised. Donkey Kong Country (developed in the UK) is a good example of this. the game runs at full screen 50hz but has been optimised to do so at 50hz and with the same speed as its NTSC counterpart.

We don't actually need 60hz games at all providing our games are properly optimised to run on a 50hz display.

unfortunately Super Mario Bros, while running at the correct speed has black borders at the top and bottom of the screen and as a result has a squashed picture.

its not a consequence of the game running at 50hz, its a consequence of a developer literally "squashing" a 60hz version into a 50hz box.

In the old days before PAL TV's could run 60hz pictures the developers had an excuse for not optimising the games, it took time. However nowerdays there is no such excuse as by adding a 60hz option 99% of TV's can display the game as they were meant to be displayed. That's why some of us fit switches to our old Saturns and Snes's to "force" the console to display the game as it should. It makes the recent excuses of "development time" from the makers of Madworld seem even lazier. Adding a 60hz option hardly constitutes recoding the whole game! the same goes for VC games (although I have discovered since modding my SNES that some SNES titles can't be "forced" in such a way without glitching; Super Mario Kart and Starwing being 2 prominent ones that interestingly havn't appeared on VC. These titles would need recoding to run properly at 60hz).

In addition to this some SNES titles also perform a Hz check on booting up (similar to a region check) and won't run if you try to "force" them (although you can get round this by switching to 60hz after the game loads up at 50hz). Quite why Nintendo went to this much trouble is unclear.

[slangman]

This thread deserves more attention

NES
Castlevania (worst conversion IMO)
Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: No, Borders: Yes, Slower Soundtrack Yes

Metroid
Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: No, Borders: Yes, Slower Soundtrack Yes

Mega Man II
Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: No, Borders: Yes, Slower Soundtrack Yes

Kid Icarus
Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: No, Borders: Yes, Slower Soundtrack Yes

Gradius
Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: No, Borders: Yes, Slower Soundtrack Yes

Mega Drive

Phantasy Star IV
Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: No, Borders: Yes, Slower Soundtrack Yes

Sonic The Hedgehog
Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: No, Borders: Yes, Slower Soundtrack Yes

Vectorman
Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: No, Borders: Yes, Slower Soundtrack Yes

Shinobi III: Return of the Ninja Master
Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: No, Borders: Yes, Slower Soundtrack No

NEO GEO
Samurai Shodown II
Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: No, Borders: Yes

[Jogurt the Yogurt]

Unfortunately, I'm just a lowly North American, so I can't help much. But I'll sticky the thread as long as it's being actively updated.

[slangman]

Originally Posted by Jogurt the Yogurt

Unfortunately, I'm just a lowly North American, so I can't help much. But I'll sticky the thread as long as it's being actively updated.

Just what this thread needs. Nice one. Hopefully more people will see this thread.

[pdRydia]

Originally Posted by slangman

Vectorman
Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: No, Borders: Yes, Slower Soundtrack Yes

Shinobi III: Return of the Ninja Master
Format: 50hz, Speed Corrected: No, Borders: Yes, Slower Soundtrack No

So the slowdown on the soundtrack is separate from the general gameplay slowdown?

[slangman]

Originally Posted by pdRydia

So the slowdown on the soundtrack is separate from the general gameplay slowdown?

Yep not all games running in 50hz have slowed down music. Some do and some don't.

[Betagam7]

Originally Posted by slangman

This thread deserves more attention

NES
Castlevania (worst conversion IMO)

Any reason why you feel this is worse than the others? Looks to me like all NES games bar Hanabi and SMB are uniformly bad. Is it just that this game feels worse when slowed down?

Updated the Mega Drive and Neo Geo sections but do you think its worth chronicling each game for the Mega Drive/NES or just the exceptions as most seem pretty uniform in the 50hz, borders, no speed correction, no music correction state of badness?

[SKTTR]

Originally Posted by Betagam7

do you think its worth chronicling each game for the Mega Drive/NES or just the exceptions as most seem pretty uniform in the 50hz, borders, no speed correction, no music correction state of badness?

A general info about all EU games for each console would be better,
with a list of all exceptions.

And then the ones you haven't got info on so people can help out.

[pdRydia]

Originally Posted by Betagam7

Updated the Mega Drive and Neo Geo sections but do you think its worth chronicling each game for the Mega Drive/NES or just the exceptions as most seem pretty uniform in the 50hz, borders, no speed correction, no music correction state of badness?

My opinion may not be so useful, but I think that it's worth noting which games have not been checked. It'd be a shame if someone made an assumption about a game and then it turned out it wasn't the case.

[slangman]

Originally Posted by Betagam7

Any reason why you feel this is worse than the others? Looks to me like all NES games bar Hanabi and SMB are uniformly bad. Is it just that this game feels worse when slowed down?

Maybe it's me, but this game does feels slow and the slow music sounds really bad.

Originally Posted by Betagam7

Updated the Mega Drive and Neo Geo sections but do you think its worth chronicling each game for the Mega Drive/NES or just the exceptions as most seem pretty uniform in the 50hz, borders, no speed correction, no music correction state of badness?

Hmm well I reckon it's better to have all the games for the Mega Drive /NES. There could be an odd title where borders are reduced, or even speed correction. Sonic 3 could be a perfect example, but I am not sure about the VC version.

[Betagam7]

Pulseman arrives and once again, Sega downgrades a Hanabi title that what should be a 60hz import instead runs at 50hz with borders. Once more those details of who to complain to are below.

Suggest all PAL gamers on this forum take the time to send them a letter of complaint for every game they release in this state:

Sega Europe
27 Great West Road
Brentford
Middlesex
TW8 9BW
United Kingdom

[slangman]

It's the third week of the Hanabi Festivle, and yet again Sega has butchered another Mega Drive game to run at 50hz. Not only does MUSHA run slower (you can actually see the difference this time) with borders, but they also botched the soundtrack.

You can tell by watching this vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaHbBQcTA9Y

[davyK]

I have noticed a big difference in the speed of the music in SMB and SMB Lost levels - its a lot faster in SMB.

Is this normal? I have checked - my Wii is set to 60Hz.

[slangman]

Originally Posted by davyK

I have noticed a big difference in the speed of the music in SMB and SMB Lost levels - its a lot faster in SMB.

Is this normal? I have checked - my Wii is set to 60Hz.

The 50hz version of SMB has faster music. The 60hz version of SMB has the same music speed as SMB: The Lost Levels.

[Betagam7]

Originally Posted by slangman

The 50hz version of SMB has faster music. The 60hz version of SMB has the same music speed as SMB: The Lost Levels.

I've heard that SMB on VC is from the "speed corrected" cart that came with SMB and Duckhunt. This explains why the music is faster than the standard 50hz PAL version.

[davyK]

So does that mean that the music in Lost Levels is as intended by the developers then?

If that is the case why was the music sped up so much in the corrected version of SMB1 then?

I'm finding this slightly confusing. Is this correct then?

SMB1:50Hz has fast music
SMB1:60Hz has slower music
SMB:Lost Levels 60Hz has slower music

I'd just like to know what version is the original (i.e. the original 60Hz Japanese version) - and if the original version music is slower why was the PAL version sped up?

[Betagam7]

Originally Posted by davyK

So does that mean that the music in Lost Levels is as intended by the developers then?

If that is the case why was the music sped up so much in the corrected version of SMB1 then?

I'm finding this slightly confusing. Is this correct then?

SMB1:50Hz has fast music
SMB1:60Hz has slower music
SMB:Lost Levels 60Hz has slower music

I'd just like to know what version is the original (i.e. the original 60Hz Japanese version) - and if the original version music is slower why was the PAL version sped up?

Lost Levels is unaltered from the original Japanese "Super Mario Bros 2". It runs as it was intended to as to all 60hz Hanabi titles.

It's the 50hz games where you get disparities because most havn't been corrected and as such the gameplay and music run 17% slower than originally intended.

The original SMB PAL version suffered from this and so when it was rereleased on the SMB/Duck Hunt cart it was "Speed corrected" and artificially sped up to match the gameplay speed of the 60hz original. Unfortunately this process hasn't been done properly either so the music runs faster than the original (similarly nothing has been done to remove the borders or restore the squashed graphics).

Of course, these days such "corrections" arn't necessary as nearly everyone in PAL territories has a TV capable of running 60hz. If Nintendo just gave people the option of running games in this manner then it wouldn't have to do any work "correcting" its games.

[davyK]

Many thanks. That clears it up for me.

I really like the graphical touches Lost Levels got - its a pity they weren't incorporated into the All Stars version of that game.

[Betagam7]

Updated Sonic 2 and 3 for Megadrive as discovered the originals were speed optimised (although still with squashed bordered gamplay). Can anyone confirm if the soundtrack matches the speed optimisation?

[SKTTR]

Originally Posted by Betagam7

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[CENTER]NEO GEO

[LEFT]Early indications are that the Neo Geo PAL conversions will follow the same path as the Sega Megadrive and NES conversions in being uniformly bad. Expect 50hz no speed correction and borders throughout. As a PAL gamer you would be far better buying the excellent SNK: Arcade Collections for true 60hz NEO GEO Gaming (They're also much better value for money!)



Magician Lord
Format: 50hz, Speed Correction: No, Borders: Yes

Neo Geo
Format: 50hz, Speed Correction: No, Borders: Yes

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Why is Neo Geo listed as a game?

[Betagam7]

Originally Posted by SKTTR

Why is Neo Geo listed as a game?

No idea, it was probably a place filler for another Neo Geo game someone in the thread reported on.
I can only list the games I've downloaded or other people tell me about as I don't wish to give inaccurate information if some of them have actually been optimised.
I've removed it now.

[Betagam7]

A brief note on this. It's come to my attention with the release of Ironclad in downgraded 50hz form that the European Wii shop is erroneously advertising both this title and Sega's downgraded hanabi imports with the legend "This game runs in 60hz"

Please note that THEY DO NOT and I am currently on to my good 'PALs' at Nintendo UK asking them what the hell they are playing with this time!

Stay tuned for updates.

[Jogurt the Yogurt]

Bring down the house, brother!

I'm guessing that 60hz thing is just a standard chunk of text they automatically slap onto all imports without realizing it's not true.

[Betagam7]

Originally Posted by Jogurt the Yogurt

Bring down the house, brother!

I'm guessing that 60hz thing is just a standard chunk of text they automatically slap onto all imports without realizing it's not true.

Mmm, me to. After the Last Ninja 3 debacle this appears to be further evidence that Nintendo doesn't even bother checking what goes up on the PAL VC shop and, provided it loads, just assumes everything is hunky dory!