Do Europeans get screwed?

[Visualante]

I refuse to buy Genesis games because they are 50hz ports. I even shy away from some SNES games if they're not optimised. Street Fighter is the only exception.

Will I have to ignore NeoGeo because of Euro ports? That's if it comes to Europe at all.

[Mendez]

Great thread title there :lol:

My biggest hate with Euro games is the borders, I don't mind the slower speed much, I have slow reactions anyway so it makes it a little easier.

Nintendo really should have done something about it though, the Sonic 2 borders are awful =[

[The shoemaker]

Are you saying that you guys have a border around your games, that sucks. And your games are slower? How do u know, oh is it just like slow that you can tell, if so i feal bad for you guys I have normal speed I think.

[Phantom]

I don't get all this 60hz vs 50hz stuff.... is there really that much of a difference? All I've noticed when playing a game with options to switch between them is that with 60hz the game fills the entire screen (and sometimes all words don't fit on screen) or/and on most tvs it plays in black and white...

Is it only fighting and platform games that this is a problem for you?

[Visualante]

b0llsb77Esc

Did Neo Geo suffer a similar fate?

[ICEknight]

I hope they're going to do the same they did with the TurboGrafx games (real 60Hz), since the games shared the same code in the European, Japanese and US versions.

[SegaFan]

I don't get all this 60hz vs 50hz stuff.... is there really that much of a difference? All I've noticed when playing a game with options to switch between them is that with 60hz the game fills the entire screen (and sometimes all words don't fit on screen) or/and on most tvs it plays in black and white...

Is it only fighting and platform games that this is a problem for you?
It affects retro games more than modern games, with retro games you got a reduction of speed, with Dreamcast onwards it's not much difference. It particularly affected the Mega Drive for some reason.

But it's not too bad, it's only usually noticable when you play a 50Hz version of a game right after the 60Hz version (like on that video). The slower speed becomes unnoticable after a short while and definitely not any easier.

[Joxe]

The biggest problem is as said the borders, Wonder Boy looked like it was meant to play in 16:9 format because of the large borders. The slowdown is not that bad (17% as said in many threads) and isn't noticeable as long as you don't compare them side by side.

The borders are made from the fact that PAL is using a larger resolution which meant that they just putted in the NTSC resolution into the PAL screen, which meant that the borders was created.

I wonder one thing though, games that was created in europe, did they suffer the same fate? Or was they originally created with the 50 Hz mode from beginning and actually speeded up in the NTSC regions? But maybe most games were either from Japan or America so no one knows ;)

[SegaFan]

I wonder one thing though, games that was created in europe, did they suffer the same fate? Or was they originally created with the 50 Hz mode from beginning and actually speeded up in the NTSC regions? But maybe most games were either from Japan or America so no one knows
There are no European consoles, I think that's the main factor. Remember PAL 50Hz is no 'worse' than NTSC, it's more of a problem with compatability. Games developed in Europe (there are quite a few) were still designed for NTSC to match the console's home region. Some games were optimised for PAL (the games were sped up, and borders reduced) but this wasn't easy in the Mega Drive/SNES era. I guess European developers were more likely to optimise games like this, for instance Rare's games had better than average PAL versions.

The biggest problem is as said the borders, Wonder Boy looked like it was meant to play in 16:9 format because of the large borders.
When games have really large borders like that I find using the 'zoom' function on my widescreen TV to get it to fill the whole screen works pretty well. It doesn't correct the ratio but at least it doesn't stretch it any more.

[Radretrogamer]

Wow, i never knew what people meant about the Hz either. but now that ive seen it compared, i cant emagine how that would even meet nintendos 'seal of quality'. i dont like it one bit, and i think they should fix that.

in answer to the threads question, yes EU got completely screwed,... in the butt :(

[Pegasus]

It's kind of weird, though. When I was still living in Germany I can't remember ever seeing such borders when I played games from that era at stores or at friends'. Or maybe I remember incorrectly. Maybe it's because, at the time, I never actually had seen a 60hz version. *shrugs*

[SegaFan]

Wow, i never knew what people meant about the Hz either. but now that ive seen it compared, i cant emagine how that would even meet nintendos 'seal of quality'. i dont like it one bit, and i think they should fix that.

in answer to the threads question, yes EU got completely screwed,... in the butt :(

To be honest that YouTube video takes the worst possible example and it's not a fair comparison. How fast Sonic runs is not a precise art, I wouldn't be surprised with a game like that if the developers never fixed the speed until near the end of the game's development, it was before the days when games were so tested and fine tuned, you could equally say the 60Hz version is too fast. Sonic was very popular in Europe, I think that's enough evidence to prove that the version we got wasn't that bad. And it's different depending on the game, Sonic is probably the most noticable example.

[ICEknight]

Wow, i never knew what people meant about the Hz either. but now that ive seen it compared, i cant emagine how that would even meet nintendos 'seal of quality'. i dont like it one bit, and i think they should fix that.
Then drop them an email and tell them your thoughts.


To be honest that YouTube video takes the worst possible example and it's not a fair comparison. How fast Sonic runs is not a precise art, I wouldn't be surprised with a game like that if the developers never fixed the speed until near the end of the game's development, it was before the days when games were so tested and fine tuned, you could equally say the 60Hz version is too fast. Sonic was very popular in Europe, I think that's enough evidence to prove that the version we got wasn't that bad. And it's different depending on the game, Sonic is probably the most noticable example.
No, it doesn't depend on the game and yes, it's a fair comparison. Every PAL MegaDrive game runs slower than its NTSC counterpart. The only thing they fixed was the music, and just in some of them.

60 Hz is the way the games were designed to be played, and that's how many European and Australian people want to play them nowadays.

[SegaFan]

No, it doesn't depend on the game and yes, it's a fair comparison. Every PAL MegaDrive game runs slower than its NTSC counterpart. The only thing they fixed was the music, and just in some of them.
OK, I did forget that often they would just fix the music, but technically I wasn't just talking about the Mega Drive. And it's not a fair comparison, in my opinion, in that putting them side by side makes it more obvious than if you're just playing and not comparing it.

60 Hz is the way the games were designed to be played, and that's how many European and Australian people want to play them nowadays.
That's fine, I don't disagree. I wasn't defending Nintendo here, VC games should support 60Hz and they should support progressive scan as well, there's no excuse. I was talking about how back in the old days it wasn't such a bad thing as some people say, in my opinion.

[PowerLegend]

b0llsb77Esc

Did Neo Geo suffer a similar fate?

Oh wow, that really sucks for you guys.

[SKTTR]

First off, a slower speed and borders up and down of the screen.
Who would have cared in the 90ies?
We only had eyes for that, what was between the borders.
I didn't care about speed differences as well because I never noticed,
because I never played US games at that time.
Everyone in EU had/has PAL.
All PAL SNES games suffered from borders and slower speed.
And I think all PAL MD games too. But we didn't care.

It would be great to work on these games to make them run like the original but it isn't something worthwhile at all.
Better translations and new translations in general is needed more.
More special features inside the old games are needed more.
Leaderboards. Better prices. More games. Rumble. Controller Pak.
Earthbound. Chrono Trigger. Sin & Punishment. This is all needed more.

Anyway, until the N64 came out. Even the first N64 games weren't optimized.
Although some of them were: Blast Corps, Killer Instinct Gold, Star Wars: Shadows of the Empire, Lylat Wars.
Others unfortunately were not: Super Mario 64, Mario Kart 64, Pilotwings 64, Wave Race 64, Bomberman 64.

But after the start of the N64, I think LucasArts developed a system or used a technique that was first used in Star Wars: SotE (to make a PAL game fullscreen without borders, stretching the screen) and then Nintendo used it for all their later games. But the games still were slower. The rate was getting better but games were never as fast as their NTSC counterparts.

I think just lately with the Gamecube (Metroid Prime 2: Echoes and Geist) were true 60Hz games, that run extactly like the NTSC versions.

[EnglishRob]

I had both a US SNES and JAP Megadrive back in the 90's, thats why I won't buy any Megadrive games on VC because they run at 50Hz (and too slow for my liking). In fact, if I play any Megadrive games now I'll play them on my PAL Megadrive with a 50/60Hz US/EUR/JAP region switch.

I'm hoping the Neo Geo will have the option to run at 60Hz, I presume they'll do it the same as TG-16.

Rob

[Drake]

I believe the Neo Geo's similar to the TurboGrafx - The European games were 60Hz too. Mostly because it's pretty much all arcade ports anyway.

I'm no expert on the system though, so might want to wait for somebody with more experience to answer.

[EnglishRob]

Well when I had a Neo Geo console a few years back it was a 60Hz machine. IIRC there was the option to get a 50Hz version back in the 90's but from what I understand it wasn't an official PAL console, just a modified machine.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed anyway.

Rob

[ICEknight]

First off, a slower speed and borders up and down of the screen.
Who would have cared in the 90ies?
Hello 2000's. We've grown to care about not being screwed up with inferior versions. Specially without any justification.
It would be great to work on these games to make them run like the original but it isn't something worthwhile at all.
Thing is, they wouldn't have to "work on these games", we would be playing them full speed from this very minute, if they wanted to.
They already have the "fast" emulator, all they would need is to let us download it instead of the "slower" one they offer us.

I think just lately with the Gamecube (Metroid Prime 2: Echoes and Geist) were true 60Hz games, that run extactly like the NTSC versions.
Dreamcast games did too (and this is talking about almost 10 years ago).

[Zubiac]

The N64 had an internal upscaling feature to make PAL games fullscreen.
Sadly devs used that feature not from the beginning.

The NEOGEO games will be all 60hz(here in EU) as it was never officialy released in Europe.
It's exactly the same as with the Turbo Grafx games.
YAY

[ICEknight]

The NEOGEO games will be all 60hz(here in EU) as it was never officialy released in Europe.
It's exactly the same as with the Turbo Grafx games.
Huh.

We got both the TurboGrafx and the Neo-Geo consoles in Europe.

[Zubiac]

Huh.

We got both the TurboGrafx and the Neo-Geo consoles in Europe.


Ala wiki and several other sources:
There was no official PAL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAL) version of the system, but a grey importer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_market) provided a very limited release in the United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom) and continental Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe) in 1990 as Turbografx (not including the "16" in the title, and lowercase "g" in "grafx")

The Turbografx was basicly non-existant in Europe.


The NeoGeo AES homeconsole was basicly the arcade machine. Therefor it ran automaticly at 60Hz (worldwide). NeoGeo AES games were not region locked. Only the consoles were(sort of).
Yeah the NeoGeo was available here in EU. You are right.

[Angelic Lapras King]

Theres an article on the NOE website saying the Neo Geo titles are coming soon, so yay. ^^

[crops55]

"Do Europeans get screwed?"How else do they procreate?

[Jonno]

"Do Europeans get screwed?"How else do they procreate?

XD Made me laugh a bit in my head.

[Drake]

Well, now that Fatal Fury's out, anybody getting the game to see if it has borders/slowness?

[Shortay]

Well, now that Fatal Fury's out, anybody getting the game to see if it has borders/slowness?

I won't be anyway, I'm not a fan of fighting games and something keeps stopping me from downloading Streets of Rage 1, 2 or 3...

[ZueriHB]

I can assure you, that Neo Geo games run in 50 Hz.

See for yourself (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3942686343549876306)

[ICEknight]

Everybody start sending complaining e-mails to Nintendo, now.
No excuses accepted.

[The Holg]

I'm with ICEknight on this one!
Start emailing them NOW and don't stop before this issue is solved!
Nintendo has done a lot of positive things for European gamers, like the 60 Hz modes of the GameCube and the Wii and the fact that most games get to released in Europe pretty shortly after their US release. All this was a lot different (and much worse) back in the 80s and 90s.
I can see no reason why they don't offer 60Hz versions of all VC games and why they ignore our complaints here in the forums and online petitions.

We all have to make some noise right now!

I've been emailing Nintendo on a weekly basis for quite some time now to complain about this issue and I won't stop till it's been solved. I encourage everyone to do the same.

[ICEknight]

Thing is, in this case it would be as simple as setting the emulator to 60Hz mode: Changing a single variable in the emu's memory, depending on the screen mode the Wii is set, just like the TurboGrafx emu does.

They wouldn't have to reprogram anything, or find the European/US/Japanese version of each game, because the same versions were released worldwide (again, just like happens with the TurboGrafx).


It's nice that they want to add a 50Hz option, but why to remove the already existant 60Hz mode from the emu they're using? 50Hz is bad for the eyes, and they should avoid it as much as possible.




So please guys, start sending those emails before they release more Neo-Geo games and they'd have to start releasing updates for each one.

[SegaFan]

Nintendo has done a lot of positive things for European gamers, like the 60 Hz modes of the GameCube and the Wii and the fact that most games get to released in Europe pretty shortly after their US release. All this was a lot different (and much worse) back in the 80s and 90s.
Until an equal number of games get released here first as in America, they get no praise from me. We should be treated equally. And Sega did PAL 60Hz first, and much better than Nintendo since (almost) all PAL Dreamcast games supported it.

Thing is, in this case it would be as simple as setting the emulator to 60Hz mode: Changing a single variable in the emu's memory, depending on the screen mode the Wii is set, just like the TurboGrafx emu does.
Sometimes the sound on PAL games were fixed so the soundtrack ran at normal speed in 50Hz. Wouldn't that make the sound too fast if you play a PAL game in 60Hz? That's the only potential problem I can see, but I'm probably wrong, and I agree it's not an excuse.

[ICEknight]

Sometimes the sound on PAL games were fixed so the soundtrack ran at normal speed in 50Hz. Wouldn't that make the sound too fast if you play a PAL game in 60Hz? That's the only potential problem I can see, but I'm probably wrong, and I agree it's not an excuse.
Neo-Geo games don't have PAL or NTSC versions. The same code was shared internationally, and they changed the music speed by themselves depending on the system they were being played on.

So in case the Wii is set to 60Hz, the emulator would fix the music by itself when setting the 60Hz mode.

[Sonic]

I don't understand why europeans complain. Most europeans would have owned the PAL versions anyway (unless they had a foreign machine). All the VC is doing is creating the games exactly as you played them in your youth.

[ICEknight]

I don't understand why europeans complain. Most europeans would have owned the PAL versions anyway (unless they had a foreign machine). All the VC is doing is creating the games exactly as you played them in your youth.
They were (and still are) running at 60hz in the arcades, which is where 99% of the population has played them, and thus how everybody remembers them.
This has an easy fix, so why not? If some wierd dude wants to play the slower versions, he could always set the Wii to 50hz mode (just how it already happens with the TurboGrafx games). If we have it set to 60hz you´d think it´s for a reason.



Also, we don´t want our eyes to bleed anymore.

[Sonic]

They were (and still are) running at 60hz in the arcades, which is where 99% of the population has played them, and thus how everybody remembers them.
This has an easy fix, so why not? If some wierd dude wants to play the slower versions, he could always set the Wii to 50hz mode (just how it already happens with the TurboGrafx games). If we have it set to 60hz you´d think it´s for a reason.



Also, we don´t want our eyes to bleed anymore.

Well the likes of Sonic the Hedgehog, and Streets of Rage 2 and countless other VC titles were never in arcades. And the PAL versions of these ( and other) games are all 95% of Europeans had played. Until the arrival of compilation discs at least.

Edit- Just realised you meant Neo Geo titles when referring to arcades. It's just that the thread went off track a bit and I was approaching it from a PAL/NTSC angle in general.

[EnglishRob]

I can assure you, that Neo Geo games run in 50 Hz.

See for yourself (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3942686343549876306)

I really am disapointed, I downloaded Fatal Fury today and the first thing I noticed was the borders. Sure, I can stretch them on my TV but it loses some of the picture (plus it doesn't speed things up).

I think I'll hang fire now on getting any more Neo Geo games on the VC, hopefully Nintendo will see sense and give us the option of 60Hz but I doubt it.

If I had the money I'd get myself a US Wii, at least that would run at 60Hz.

Rob

[ICEknight]

I think I'll hang fire now on getting any more Neo Geo games on the VC, hopefully Nintendo will see sense and give us the option of 60Hz but I doubt it.
You know, they won't change a thing if we don't tell them there's something wrong with it. So here's the contact information for various countries, just send them a few lines to express your oppinions on this matter:


UK http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:dVk8blwet2kJ:wiiportal.nintendo-europe.com/29.html

France http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:2Y_cZiljM1AJ:wiiportal.nintendo-europe.com/786.html

Germany http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:TA91MsTXLHgJ:wiiportal.nintendo-europe.com/765.html

Italy http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:BDYdISij9nkJ:wiiportal.nintendo-europe.com/793.html

Spain http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:_AB8rAqCHCAJ:www.nintendo-europe.com/NOE/es/ES/contactus/index.jsp

[SegaFan]

I don't understand why europeans complain. Most europeans would have owned the PAL versions anyway (unless they had a foreign machine). All the VC is doing is creating the games exactly as you played them in your youth.

The fact that we got inferor versions in the first place is all the more reason to want the 'proper' 60Hz versions now. There weren't many 60Hz compatable TVs back then, now they all are, there's no excuse.

You know, they won't change a thing if we don't tell them there's something wrong with it. So here's the contact information for various countries, just send them a few lines to express your oppinions on this matter:
I already did last year and got no response, but I'll try again.

[ZueriHB]

On the other hand Nintendo releases 60Hz only games, like the Hanabi-Festival or the Zelda Bonus Disc for GameCube.

Yes, we played most games on the VC in 50Hz back in the day, but do you really think it's healthy for a display-device to switch frequencies regulary? And I think that's also a reason Nintendo has this 'interlaced mode' (And WHY isn't there just a button or something for this?).

[nintendoduffin]

It would be nice to have VC games running at 60hz but I'm not going to hold my breath. If I want to play SNES games at 60hz I can just dig out my SNES (I have a PAL console modified with a 50/60hz switch, best investment ever).

[coire]

Yes. Constantly. On Everything.


Brawl release delay.
Super Paper Mario. That one was Hilarious.
The fact that The Amerians Can always download Lost Levels whilst Europeans are given a tiny one month slot.
We never Got Super Mario RPG.
We never got Chrono Trigger.
We have to pay 100 more points for Ninja Gaiden.
We never got Manhunt 2 (Not my complaint, but still)
We don't get cool 'Gold' and Black/red DS bundles. We get Silver.I could go on, But I shan't.

[Visualante]

This is a Neo Geo thread.

[coire]

We still get screwed on everything. And Neo Geo games are no different.

With these speed issues that people keep talking about affecting European releases it is a big downer. Especially the fact that there were so many fighting games on the Neo Geo and games of that genre rely so heavily upon speed and coordination.

[ZueriHB]

Do the Neo Geo games realy run slower on PAL? I thought just the image was in 50Hz PAL, like PCEngine, but without 60Hz.

[coire]

Rumour has it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Virtual_Console_games_%28Europe%29#Neo_Geo _.28900_Wii_Points.29

[NESgamer]

Yes. Constantly. On Everything.

Brawl release delay.
Super Paper Mario. That one was Hilarious.
The fact that The Amerians Can always download Lost Levels whilst Europeans are given a tiny one month slot.
We never Got Super Mario RPG.
We never got Chrono Trigger.
We have to pay 100 more points for Ninja Gaiden.
We never got Manhunt 2 (Not my complaint, but still)
We don't get cool 'Gold' and Black/red DS bundles. We get Silver.I could go on, But I shan't.

That sucks, mostly the Brawl release, it should been worldwide.

I didn't know that about Ninja Gaiden, what the hell?.

[ICEknight]

Do the Neo Geo games realy run slower on PAL? I thought just the image was in 50Hz PAL, like PCEngine, but without 60Hz.
That's actually what I was wondering too. TurboGrafx games just skip some frames when in 50Hz mode, to make the game speed the same as in 60, but it looks quite jerky that way.

If NEO-GEO VC games act the same way, it would be even less understandable that we don't get an optional 60Hz mode for these...